What if your bad results are by design? A guide for HR leaders

In an operating review, every function head ties their work to the number except, too often, the head of HR. The gap between being asked to lead the business and being handed tasks to execute is where most HR careers stall. Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr., an organization psychologist who led HR at Procter & Gamble before founding the Organization Transformation Group, closes that gap with an engineer's premise: results are by design, and a result you don't want came from a system you can change.

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What does it mean when results are by design?

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Every result an organization produces, good or bad, was designed into it, usually by a decision made long before anyone traced the outcome. Williams learned to read HR the way an engineer reads a system: the output is evidence, and the process behind it is where the fix lives. "If you see a result, there's some process that got you to that. So if you want to change it, just go back and look at your process," he said.

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How does an HR leader move from administrative to strategic?

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The shift is a decision before it is a skill. Williams argues that most HR professionals wait for direction and execute whatever gets handed over the wall, when the move to strategic begins the moment they choose to influence outcomes, envision the future, and drive impact. "Most people who are in HR have not made a decision to lead," he said. Make the decision, and the capability can be trained.

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What separates a manager from a leader?

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A manager keeps the resources running; a leader defines the outcome and works backward to reach it. Williams uses a car that tops out at 80 miles per hour when the organization needs 120. A manager maintains the 80. A leader decides on the 120 and redesigns everything upstream to get there. "Most people out there that should be leading organizations are managing organizations. They're not leading organizations," he said.

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How does organization design actually drive business results?

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Organization design produces culture, culture drives consistent behavior, and behavior produces the results, so a strategic leader designs backward from the results they want. Williams saw it at a high-performing P&G plant in Brockville, Ontario that was posting dangerous safety numbers, statistically due for a fatality. The plant's "red light" rules fired anyone caught skipping a safety step, so workers in a tight-knit Canadian culture stopped reporting incidents to protect each other. The team pulled the rules out, built a way to report without consequence, and rehired the people they had terminated. Inside twelve to eighteen months the plant ranked among the safest in P&G. "We were uniquely designed to get those poor safety results. We came back and changed the design," he said.

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Should HR build a relationship with finance to get programs funded?

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Not first. Williams treats finance as a regulator that accounts for the money and holds you to the numbers, not the group that decides where the organization is headed. The people who own the vision own the budget, so HR should build relationships with the operators it serves and reframe a program as an investment rather than an expense. "We've kind of made finance the God, but money should not drive vision," he said. Companies find money for what they believe will pay them back.

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The throughline is that HR results were never soft. Tie them to productivity and attrition, own the behavior underneath the feelings, and the work stops reading as administration and starts reading as leadership.

Logan (00:00): I don't know if you consider yourself an engineer by trade or what have you and then got into HR, but like, how has that shaped your mindset moving into HR?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (00:03): Yeah. You know, for me, I think what HR, what being an engineer did for me is basically, there's a science to everything. You know, that's the first part of it. The other thing too is that engineers do things to get to a solution and have an answer or to have a result. Coming into HR and the company that I was in, it had the same mindset in HR. There were problems to solve, answers to be gotten, results to get. Most HR folk don't understand that. So for me, know that it's sort of results, they don't just come about. They have to be designed to get what you want. There's a design, there's a science to it. And so most HR folks don't approach HR that way. The company I came from, we did.

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Logan (01:01): Yeah, it's interesting. We'll talk about that in one of the topics, but every result of its design was the culture. It was like a 70s P&G thing, right? Where the organization had decided that operational design gave... I don't know, you probably know it by heart. Yeah.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (01:20): Yeah, it was in the 80s and 90s. They actually implemented, they used the theory of OP model by Hannah, right, during that particular time. Actually, the principles of it have not changed, right? There are other processes that you, other things that you can use. But what we, me and my people in my organization now, we're really familiar with the science of that. We've adapted it in many ways, but the principle of it is just true. And that's anything. That's anything that you're doing. If you see a result, there's some process that got you to that. So if you want to change it, just go back and look at your process, you know, and you can make that shift.

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Good example. If you're standing outside in the rain and you're getting wet, you don't want get wet. Why are you getting wet? Right? Well, maybe you walked out there, didn't know it was going to rain. That's information. Maybe you walked out there and you knew it was going to rain, but you forgot your umbrella. Okay. That's equipment research. You know, there's something you can ask why and get back to, why am I standing here getting wet? Everything is, everything is like that.

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Logan (02:09): Yeah, the weather one's always funny to me because, so I lived in Germany for four years, and the Germans have a saying, there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing choices.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (02:43): Absolutely, just bad decisions that you made. Okay, that's another one, decision-making. Okay, well, you actually decided to go out there. Okay, that probably wasn't a good decision. Okay, so it's a whole host of things that go into it. But the question is, why am I getting this result? Why is this happening to me right now? And anybody can penetrate that. You know, we just, and I'm in my organization, Organization Transformation Group, we just kind of like have expertise in helping companies get to the why.

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Logan (03:16): Yeah, that's good. With that, Tim, is there anything else you would like the... Before we kind of meander into our normal topics, is there anything you would like the audience to know about you and your organization?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (03:29): Well, if I think about it, we're a group of HR folk who at some point were either engineers or worked in operations or did the real work, if you want to say it like that. So we understand people from our client's point of view, not just from a book point of view. We've actually done what they've done. We've managed businesses. So that gives us a language, that gives us a perspective of, this problem that you're solving, I had it, or I had something like that. So let's figure out how we go about doing it. But what we bring to the table is the HR knowledge. What we bring to the table is the capability knowledge that gives us the tools to be able to help them solve those issues.

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Logan (03:58): Interesting. I find it interesting that you said that most of your team has an operational or engineering background. Was that by design for this problem you wanted to solve?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (04:21): Yeah, when we started this, my partner, Gail Jones, we kind of went out and kind of like recruited folk, okay, that were going to work with us, people we had worked with in the past. A lot of them from P&G, but other people who kind of like think about it like we do. And so we didn't want people. Nothing wrong with people who just went to school for HR or development. We kind of wanted people who had walked the walk. Right. And actually, when I go to an organization, no matter where it is, I tell them, yeah, I'm an organization psychologist, but I have an engineering degree. Not only that, I have a business management degree. Okay. And I've managed business within large corporations. You get credibility at a faster rate.

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Logan (05:13): That's true, because one of the first topics we want to talk about is moving from administration to strategic, especially in HR. And a lot of what happens in organizations is, how do you tie whatever you're doing? And it's not HR specific. Like, I'm in marketing, and marketing is the same way. Like, how are you tying it to business outcomes? So that's of some of your current work, right, with SHRM Georgia, is how to teach HR professionals to move from administrative to strategic. Like, what does that kind of look like in practice, and like, what are you talking to HR professionals about to make that shift?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (05:41): Okay, next time we'll find it. Yeah, you know, leadership doesn't, you know, this whole thing about whether a leader is born or made. Okay, we always want to know, you know, I think it's both. Okay. And what I mean by that, you've got people who just have natural skills and abilities to be able to lead. Then you have people who may not have those natural skills and abilities, but you can help them understand what is the practice of actual leadership.

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One thing that I think both of those have to have in common, okay, is they have to decide to lead. Okay, most people who are in HR have not made a decision to lead. Okay, if you can make a decision that you're gonna lead, meaning you're not gonna just do administrative execution and whatever they throw over the wall, you pick it up and go do something with. But you make up in your mind that you're gonna be able to help your organization envision the future, help your organization have better skills at influencing one another, outside customers, clients, and then you're going to have the ability to actually drive outcomes and impact. Once you make that decision, you can lead.

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But if you never do that, and most HR folks, they don't see themselves doing that. They think that the people they work for do that. Okay, so they have to just execute the task. No, you have to actually say to yourself, I'm a leader, because I'm going to influence, going to envision, I'm going to have impact. It gets to be that simple. So what we've been trying to do with HR folks is put them in an environment where they understand what leadership is, train them on that, and get them to have that conviction. If I can get you to have that conviction, I can train you, develop you to be able to lead.

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Logan (07:42): Yeah, and that's kind of taking the growth mindset, if you will, on it, you know, because I usually take that where you can basically do anything you put your mind to kind of a thing. Within reason, right? I mean, obviously, I'm...

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (07:53): Yeah, yeah. Well, I know rationally it's within reason. Theoretically, inspirationally, you can do anything. Okay, that's okay. I'm probably not going to go out and swim a two mile race and whatever. Okay, I'm not going to do that. I'm passive. Right. But if I wanted to, I could. It take a lot of work. So that's the mindset you have to have.

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Logan (08:24): So then I guess, if it's an attitude thing, or maybe you consider it an attitude, I don't want to put words in your mouth, like, say I'm an HR leader or an HR professional, it's like, I want to lead and I've made that decision. Like, what is the next thing that I should start thinking about?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (08:41): The next thing you need to start to think about is, you got to transition your thinking and your skills and ability from managing to leading. There are two different things. Most HR people are managers, which means we're handling the resources. We're in the midst of the day-to-day processes. We take whatever task execution we go do. And we need managers. The reason they behave that way is because most of what they see, the people they work for or are accountable to, they're managers too. Most people out there that should be leading organizations are managing organizations. They're not leading organizations. So if you're going to make that transition, you need to find out what leaders do. That's where you start to skill yourself. Okay, and how you go about envisioning, influencing and having impact.

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Logan (09:38): And what do leaders do versus a manager?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (09:41): What leaders do versus a manager, a manager manages resources, time, money, materials, plans, schedule, okay. They're about monitoring the task execution. What leaders do is that they envision the outcome of all of that, right? They've got the big picture in mind. Okay, now, not that they don't get to the details, but there's a path. They envision it and then they say to themselves, what is it gonna take to get there? They don't look at the situation as it is. For instance, you might have a car that can only do 80 miles and your organization, on a car analogy, needs to be 120. Okay, well, most people look at, well, we can only do 80. No, forget about what you can do. Decide what you need to do, that's your vision. Then you work backwards to design, correct, get resources, whatever it is, to get to that hundred miles per hours that you need with your organization. But if you stay as a manager that's managing, maintaining the 80, you're never gonna get there. Leadership makes that jump. They don't think about what is possible today. They think about what possible ability needs to be. Okay, and then they work towards that.

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Logan (10:59): Interesting. We're not in this episode, we're not going to talk too much about AI, but I find that interesting, that analogy interesting, because it, not analogy per se, but what that can do. So currently a lot of people are thinking AI just replacing what they're currently doing, not envisioning all of the extra stuff that you could do to move an organization to become different than what we're currently doing. Like, it's like, it's this huge leap, and I'm not going to say that it's easy, but because we just don't know, but like, that seems like a timely practice to start thinking about, if you're a manager, thinking, what could the future state look like?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (11:31): No. Absolutely, yeah. You can't change a thing if you keep looking at it the way that it is. Right? Got to have anything that changes, you got to have a thought that's different than the way it is. And that's what leaders bring to the table. And then they inspire people to bring that vision to fruition.

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Logan (12:04): Yeah. Have you read the book? It's called Nine Lies About Work. I've probably mentioned it on this podcast many times. It was one of those books that my mentor shared with me and I fell in love with it. And it's got all these things that we tell ourselves at work, and they, you know, go through and disprove why they're lies. And one of them is, leadership is a thing, at the end. And they detail all sorts of things about leaders and how they operate, and the inspiring people portion of it, they spend some time on, and they take, you know, some famous leaders and they're like, well, a lot of leaders were polarizing. You don't have to be polarizing to be a leader, but they end up, 'cause they have a direct message and a point of view and all of these things. Super good book, I highly recommend it.

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But so, I actually want to skip around a little bit, because you mentioned the results are by design, if you will, kind of a thing that seems to be kind of a theme. When we're talking about this, you said that organizational design was something that you're very interested in right now. And you asked me what I thought about it. And I said, you know, org charts, span of control, you know, managers, all of that. And you're like, no, no, no. It's about the systems that you designed for the results, that probably comes from the P&G mindset of, you're getting the results because things are designed to do that. And I think that's kind of your stance on the HR. So I want to spend some time in, like, how do you think of, or I guess in organizational design, how do you think about organizational design? Let's start there, and then go into like all the different stuff about how the listener should start thinking about organizational design outside of their scope, because I think a lot of it ties to the idea around business results.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (13:54): Yeah, yeah. So let me tell you how I understand organization design. Organization design produces culture. Okay. Culture are behaviors of your people that produce results. There is an aspect of buildings and equipment and customers or clients. You got all of that, but all things being even, okay, then what you're trying to do is, unless you can, you know, do it with robots at some point, maybe you can, what you're trying to do is get your people aligned to your vision. Okay, and behaving, away with the systems, processes, whatever it is, whatever resources to deliver that outcome, behave in a way that optimizes that. Okay, so if I'm in a technical organization, then I want people who are technical in their thinking and their orientation. I don't want hospitality people in a technical organization. See, the culture doesn't support it. I need a culture that's technical in its approach.

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So when I think about organization design, then the critical item is culture, because culture defines behavior, consistent behavior, and that is what gets you results. So when I think about organization design, you back up, you say, hey, what results are we getting? Are these results consistent with what we envision for our organization, what we need to deliver for our clients or for our customers, or what we need to deliver to be competitive in our industry? Okay, if it's not, then we need to back off and figure out why we're getting those results. Well, the first place you look is the behavior of your people. Right, what's driving the behavior? What is the why for this result that we're getting? And you work yourself back to systems, processes, communication, whatever those issues are that actually are forming the behaviors that you have in your organization that deal with your results. Dealing with that is the design process.

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Logan (15:53): Okay. And so for organizations that are starting to think about this, where should they, or HR professionals, leaders, that are starting to think about this, like, where should they start pulling threads to...

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (16:05): Well, if I were an HR leader, that whole organization and everything that they put in place is to generate results. I start with the results. What results are we getting? Not just what results are we getting, what outputs are we having? But what are the outputs that are inconsistent with where we want to be long-term, okay? Not just where we are today, but elevate yourself. Okay, we're here today, but today's results are the results of something that somebody made a decision about years ago or sometime in our past. So if you want your future to be different, start thinking about your future now in some way. Did you ignore today's results? No, you gotta be on that, because that's, you're breathing based on that, okay? Whether you continue to breathe is whether you elevate yourself to a point where you're seeing the results of the future or the changes that need to be made of the results of today.

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Logan (16:57): And I would probably argue...

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (17:10): Does that make sense to you? I mean, are you... I mean, okay.

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Logan (17:13): Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, you're having a healthy respect for where you're at today, the system design. But right now, I would imagine, and it might just be because of the bubble I'm in, but with all of the changes in technology, organizational design, profitability, like all of that, people are more often thinking, we need to shift, our results need to look different than they are today, because there's a lot of different pressures right now. So this is super timely in thinking, okay, we want our results to go, or our outcomes to be X, Y, Z, and so we need to start to look backwards. So it's a very timely discussion, I think, in thinking about your organizational design, because, I mean, I've talked to HR professionals that are thinking about how they're putting AI agents into their organization and all of this for various things.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (18:08): And see, most of that is about task execution today. That is about, okay, how do we do better, quicker, faster? And that's what AI ought to do for you, what we're doing today. So you get some productivity on the same task. But that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing. But I'm just telling you, there's bigger jumps, there's bigger accomplishments if you envision where you want to be. Okay. And then do everything in your processes of strategy and organization design to become that.

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Logan (18:46): Yeah, okay. I feel like this is a coaching session for myself as well, as much as the audience. No, I really like that. So I guess in that vein, to give a concrete example of business outcomes and systems, you had mentioned the story about safety incident reports and restructuring all of that. So I want to take the concept of results, organizational design, working backwards, and put it into a concrete example of what you did. So can you walk us through what happened during reporting safety incidences and the different outcomes?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (19:17): Absolutely. Absolutely. I was HR manager at Brockville plant in Brockville, Ontario. And we had our high performing organization, one of the best organizations in P&G at the time. And we were having terrible safety results. People were getting hurt. We were at the point where all of our statistics says we were due for fatality. And so when we heard that, of course we hopped to it, okay, to try to figure out, hey, how do we kind of like avoid this?

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And so one of the things that, in our conversations that we learned from people, we had a red light behaviors is what we called them. That if a person performed, didn't lock out, didn't report, didn't do something, they would immediately lose their job. Well, in the culture, in that Canadian culture, okay, they're not as, that culture is more forgiving and more social and more knitted together than sometimes we are in the States. And so most people would see things and they wouldn't say anything because they didn't want people to lose their jobs. Okay. So one of the strengths of a safety program is people report what is happening so we can change the behaviors. Well, they weren't reporting, and our results were going totally out of whack.

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Well, when we found that out, we walked back to the systems, to those behaviors, those red light behaviors, okay? And we said, this is what's driving it. The people told us when we talked to them, said, I'm not going to tell you that I didn't see Joel lock out, or I didn't see, because I don't want Joel to lose his job, because we had fired people. Well, what we did, we actually went back and we said, hey, here are the things we're going to change, okay? We took those rules out. We did some things around making sure people had the ability to share things with us without consequence. Matter of fact, one of the things that we did is that we actually went back to people we had terminated based on their rule and reoffered them their job.

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That was our commitment to prove, you know what? We know this is wrong. We're not going to do that anymore. Man, within a matter of months, we saw our safety results begin to change, within, I think, about a year, 18 months. We were back in the top in our safety performance and results across Procter & Gamble. So again, that is just what happened. Why is this happening? Well, we were uniquely designed to get those poor safety results. We came back and changed the design. The design changed people's behavior change or culture change, and then our results became something different.

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Logan (22:08): What do you think is about the systems that drive that culture, behavior? What is it that causes that? Because that's a huge result. Going from, you don't report it, the policies, you get fired, and so people don't report because they have that. What is it about us? Because you're also a psychologist. What is it about the systems that cause us to do things like that?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (22:34): Because people do what they value. Okay. Or they don't do, okay, what is not going to give them value. All right. So they're not going to report if there is no value to them to do it. Okay. If they think they're going to, people going to lose their job, they don't see that as valuable. Right. Basic principle with people. We do what is help with selfish. We're basically selfish people. So behaviors are driven. Why did you brush your teeth this morning? Right? You didn't brush your teeth, believe it or not, for me. Okay? Right? You brushed your teeth for you. Now, I mean, that's kind of gross, but you see my point. We do things for ourselves, even if we're doing it for others. We say it's for others. We're actually doing it for ourselves.

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Logan (23:06): Yeah, that's a good call out. So I do want to shift gears a little bit and talk about, so you're an HR professional, you're making the change to leadership, you're thinking about organizational design, looking at the future state, and now you want to start implementing your programs. And you need to request budget, you need to get buy-in from either your CHRO, or if you are the CHRO, your CEO. And a lot of HR folks that I talk to default to, okay, I need to build a relationship with finance in order to secure budget. And you have a little bit of a contrarian take on that.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (23:56): Yeah, well, go on, I'm just gonna let you finish.

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Logan (24:00): Oh, I was just going to say, what is your opinion if you're looking to get your programs funded? Like, where should you start thinking about going?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (24:07): Well, and maybe I don't have exposure to organizations where finance is in control. Right? Okay. Well, I kind of think about finance like this. Legitimately, they're like regulators to me. They're the ones that, hey, hold us accountable to the numbers. Okay? Account for the numbers. All right. And then define what kind of resources we have available to do what we have to do. Okay. But who decides what we're going to do? They're decision makers that make that decision. Okay. True enough, there's somebody else who's going to decide where we're going to spend the money that finance is accounting for. All right. And they have the greatest influence around making decisions about where that money is going to be spent, not finance.

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To me, we've kind of made finance the God, but money should not drive vision. True enough, you got to have money to make vision happen. And so there are limitations based on the funds that you have, but the vision is the vision, right? And the people who are making decisions about the vision are the ones who are going to make decisions about the strategy, the tactics. If you want to get down to HR, the programs that are going to support where they want to take the organization.

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Logan (25:25): And often it's been my experience that even if you have that gatekeeper, companies seem to always find money for things they start to believe in that are going to move the needle or get the outcome they want.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (25:36): Well, they do. The reason that's so is because now it's gone, that money is gone from an expense to an investment. Right? All right. They see something. You know what? If we put money right there, we're confident it's going to spit money back to us. It's no longer a waste, or something that we just got to spend and it's gone. It's going to make us money, of course. And there goes the influence piece at HR. You got to be able to influence people to say that what you're about is going to do that for you.

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Logan (26:09): So then when you think about talking to different decision makers, who are you envisioning? So if I'm an HR professional, like, who should I start to think about or see as, like, who are the decision makers in the organization, or who should I start building relationships with?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (26:24): Well, I think, you know, C-suite to HR leader at a plant somewhere. Okay, you know the people that you serve. Right. You know the people that you serve, you know the people who you're producing for, you know the people who are counting on you, right, that in operations or in leadership. That's where I would start. Okay, I begin to build a relationship with the people that are counting on. Okay. And I begin to get into and help them to see that I'm not just a person that's going to accomplish a task. I'm a person that you can relate to, to help you solve your problems from a people standpoint. Okay. And that means having some level of ownership for relationship and some level of ownership for understanding the outputs of results of the organization. And a lot of times that's where HR people fail.

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Logan (27:19): Is the outputs of the organization.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (27:20): Yeah, they've never been in operations. They've only worked for people who are in operation. Okay? And so to really understand it, you know, I think you have to feel the pain of being in operations and having an issue that's causing your results to be off, to really be able to have a perspective to really help.

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Logan (27:23): Do you think it's difficult in the HR function? Because oftentimes, and I think sometimes it's valid, sometimes it's not, that HR metrics are soft. Do you think that causes it to be more difficult to then own hard results that go off? Obviously, when you're talking operations, there are very concrete things that go, like product doesn't go out or all of that. I think you can probably operationalize a lot of different things, even if it's not at that level. Like, do you think maybe...

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (28:11): Well, for me, when I was in HR, okay, the bottom line results was my results. Okay. Productivity was my results. Okay. Attrition. I own that, even if people were leaving because of these piss, I'm sorry, these not so good managers. Okay. I still own it, because I felt that, own the behavior and leadership capability of the managers or the leaders. So I could actually tie my HR performance to outputs that my leaders cared about. Okay? They cared about those things. And they fall into just small categories, productivity, the cost of attrition. That's huge. Organization performance numbers. You could do your organization surveys that give you input and give you numbers around how people are feeling about their employment. All of that are numbers that you can tie to results.

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Logan (29:09): And they do tighter results. Once you start to think about it from that, no longer becomes, like, the HR metrics are soft is no longer a valid argument, because those are dollars and cents.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (29:18): Well, actually, because what we think, we think it's almost like, 'cause we're dealing with people, that that is a variable. It's just how they feel. Right. No, no, no. It's not how they feel. It's how they perform, is how they are behaving. If you can get to how they're behaving, okay, the feeling, you throw that away. Okay, now there may be a feeling that driving the behavior, and that's fine, you got to find that out, but you get to the behavior.

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Logan (29:46): Yeah. Okay. That is all really good. I want to be respectful of time here, but so, Tim, is there anything else you would like to kind of leave the audience with, and how they should start to think about moving from becoming a leader, organizational design, how to build relationships with decision makers?

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (29:55): Yeah, you know, I think the biggest thing, one of the things that I work with my clients, my coaching clients, people that I coach, is being who they are. Okay. When you say you're going to be a leader, when you say you're going to have this kind of impact, when you say you're going to elevate your game, okay, you're not trying to be anybody else. Be yourself. Okay. Take advantage of your strengths. Understand what they are. Understand what your opportunities are. Understand those opportunities that you want to do something with and those that you don't. Okay, because actually being clear about what you don't want to work on is very valuable, because it saves your time. Okay, so actually begin to look within yourself, make the decision about, I'm gonna be a leader. Make the decisions and think about what capability you need to be able to actually go deliver that.

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Either get the capability on your own, because today you can almost develop anything that you want. And then form a vision for yourself and work on that. Begin to work on that to get to be the kind of leader that you want to be. I tell my coaching clients, you have to determine who you are first, your be. Then work on why you are not that, which is dealing with your become. And then at the point where you nail all of that, then you can take action to actually be that person. And that's the approach I think I would suggest for any leader that's trying to make any kind of transition.

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Logan (31:40): Yeah, I really like that. And I like the, you know, be yourself and figure out what you don't want to do. That's so difficult early in your career and in your development, is saying, the note. Exactly.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (31:50): Absolutely. Yeah, because they do think you're supposed to do everything, right? But a hammer can't screw nails, I mean, can't screw screws. And you ought to be okay with that, right? The hammer has to be okay with that, right? And we're, to a certain extent, the same way.

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Logan (31:59): Yeah, that's good. Well, great, Tim, I appreciate the time. Where would you like listeners to connect with you to come learn more about the Organization Transformation Group? All the above.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (32:17): Yeah, yeah. You can actually go to our website. It's orbtransformgroup.com. Okay, you can go to my bio on LinkedIn, and you can get phone number if you want to call me. I'm open anyway to help, support, to talk, to chat. I'm okay with, some people have called me up and said, I know you don't know me, but I saw this, can we talk a few minutes? Of course, I can talk with you. I mean, I'm retired at this point. I work on what I want to work on. So I'll be helpful in any way that I can.

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Logan (32:50): Awesome, that's really great. And if you're in the Georgia area, you're also working with SHRM Georgia, right? Okay.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (32:56): Yeah, we've been partners with SHRM Georgia, helping them increase their leadership capability within their membership for the last three years.

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Logan (33:07): Awesome. Well, great, Tim, I appreciate the time. And enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

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Dr. Timothy M. Williams Sr. (33:11): Awesome. I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much.