What if your best employee is barely holding on? An HR leader's guide

A longtime employee's output drops and no one can name why. The dip shows up in the numbers while the cause stays hidden. Dr. John A. King, a trauma expert and author who survived childhood trafficking and rebuilt his life after it collapsed at 45, makes the case that what reads as a performance problem is often a person carrying weight nobody asked about.

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What does unresolved trauma do to someone's performance?

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It lowers performance in ways the org chart never explains. King's core claim is that trauma keeps living in the body long after the event that caused it, and it shows up in missed meetings and a slow slide in output that no metric explains on its own. A death in the family or a divorce can cut someone's productivity to as little as 20 to 30%. "Trauma wasn't something that was done to you, but something that lives in you," he says.

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Do small changes really help, or does it take one big fix?

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Small, compounding changes win. King's framework started with a Snickers bar: 20 minutes after eating it in a hotel, he went from feeling fine to suicidal, and the only variable was what he had eaten. From there he built a toolbox of free inputs, sunlight, movement, cold showers, feet on the ground, each one a 1% shift instead of a total overhaul. Ten air squats an hour, he notes, does roughly what a 25 minute workout does. "If I can make 1% change per week, I've made a 50% change to the quality of my life by the end of the year," he says.

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How can a leader build a trauma aware culture?

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Ask the second question. When someone's demeanor is off, King says, don't accept the reflexive "good, good." Ask again, hold eye contact, and be ready for an answer that costs you real time. "Ask the question with the intention of hearing an answer that may take 15 or 20 minutes out of your day," he says. The leader opens the door, but the employee decides whether to walk through it, because change only sticks when the person chooses it.

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Is it worth carrying an employee through a hard season?

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Often yes, once you run the math on tenure. Someone flattened by loss may need three to six months to get back to full strength. Set against the years already invested and the many more still ahead, grace becomes the cheaper decision, as long as authenticity keeps it honest rather than indulgent. "You've invested in that person for three or four years. Are you committed to walking with them for three to six months?" King asks.

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Who takes care of HR?

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Usually no one, and that is the gap King wants closed. HR absorbs the layoffs, the hard conversations, and the human cost that follows, and the people doing that work rarely get asked how they are holding up. "The people who are giving the care need to have care given to them," he says.

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For HR leaders reading their own dashboards, the reframe lands close to home. The person holding everyone else together belongs on the list of people who need holding too.

Dr. John A. King (00:02): Overcoming a victim mentality was essential just to

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And the people who are giving the care need to have care given to them. And I think we work with several large corporations in what we do. And when it comes to things like layoffs, a lot of people get into HR because they're fundamentally caring human

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The culture will sustain you. For one thing, asking the second question. If you notice that someone's demeanor's off, they're a little bit raggedy, their shirt isn't tucked in, maybe they're not as squared away or shaved if it's a guy as they might be. Hey, how you

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Logan (00:36): What happens when someone carries unresolved trauma into the workplace? For Dr. John A. King, this question isn't academic, it's personal. A survivor of childhood trafficking and abuse, John lost everything when his memories resurfaced at age 45. His life collapsed and he had to rebuild it from scratch. But what emerged from that breakdown was a practical, grounded approach to managing trauma in life, leadership, performance, and organizational culture.

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In this episode of Pulse by HRBench, I sat down with Dr. John King to talk about trauma in the workplace, what it looks like, how it affects performance, and what HR leaders can do to help employees carry less and contribute more. You'll learn why trauma isn't just something that happens to you, it lives in you, how small physical and environmental changes like sunlight, cold showers, grounding mats can create compounding returns for employees.

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What HR leaders can do to build trauma aware cultures, including how to ask the second question that opens space for real conversations. Why investing in someone through adversity pays off if you play the long game. This is a vulnerable candid conversation, but one that every HR and business leaders should hear because behind every productivity drop, missed meeting or shift in behavior, there might be something deeper. And if we learn to see it and respond with authenticity and grace, we'll build workplaces where people don't just survive, they grow. Let's get into it.

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Logan (02:03): John, you've got quite the past. One of the things I love about when we connected first that you talked about was just not being part of the victim mindset and being productive. But in order to get to that, I want to let you introduce yourself. What should the audience listening know about you and your past and kind of how we're going to talk about trauma in the workplace today?

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Dr. John A. King (02:15): Well, thanks, mate. Overcoming a victim mentality was essential just to survive. I had to make decisions. I had recall of being sexually abused and what we would call trafficked from the ages of four to 16. So that was one major issue that happened when I was 45. I'm 62 now.

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So that led to the total implosion of my life. I lost my company, my business, my family, my kids. It was a total life meltdown. I'm bankrupt. I ended up back at college student type level. I was in a one bedroom apartment with cement block bookcases and a mattress on the floor back at college, mate. And so total rebuild coming out of that. And then the second thing, there's been a series of things along the way. And the second thing is reuniting with my family for the first time, after 60 years going from orphan to tribe, connecting with my indigenous family in Australia and now this year losing them.

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I mean, it's this constant thing through life and theme through life that if people think it's going to be an easy walk, then sometimes, you know, it's going to hit them hard. And I think preparing, not looking for adversity, not looking for trouble, but being understanding that life will present you some. And it would be better if you got prepared for it before it turned up.

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Logan (03:45): That's probably a lot for people to digest who are jumping into this episode. Yeah, I mean, I just want to acknowledge that we're dropping into a serious conversation here, but John is awesome because I've worked for Australians before and no matter what's happening, you always have a upbeat perspective and it's impressive to be able to do that.

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Dr. John A. King (03:47): Sorry, folks!

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Logan (04:08): Preparing for that adversity, that's kind of where I wanted to start. You have, I believe it's the trauma toolbox, and you have strategies and interventions and things on an individual level. And so we're to talk about trauma at the individual level. And then we're going to extrapolate that, what you can do as an HR leader for your organization, acknowledging employees are probably going through this because people go through this. So, what's your trauma toolbox?

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Dr. John A. King (04:33): So when I started this journey, believe it or not, it started with the Snickers bar. So I was in a hotel, I was turning up to speak at a very large engagement, I'd had recall of what happened to me as a kid. And it was a great day. Landed, got off the plane, went to the hotel, they just shut the kitchen, I thought, man, I'll pick up some snacks, feeling fantastic. Got a Snickers bar, some Cheetos and a Diet Coke because that's all they had in the little thing.

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And I went up and it was one of those ones that was obviously built in the 70s or 80s where there's this huge atrium full of these really ugly plants that are all dusty on top that no one ever, you know, a Marriott something from the 70s or 80s. And I remember 20 minutes later looking down, overwhelmed with emotion and suicidal, thinking I wanted to end my life because I'd had recall, my life was over. And I stopped myself and said, hang on, what happened from 20 minutes ago, walking into the foyer, being happy.

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And now I'm suicidal. And I sat down, I said, the only thing that happened, I hadn't had a phone, anything, was a Snickers bar, some Cheetos and a Coke. And I thought it had to be nutrition. And that started, that actually was the starting point of me understanding that trauma wasn't something that was done to you, but something that lives in you. And there's all these external things that you have to become aware of. So for me, I cut out sugar, I cut out orange and red food coloring. Cut out a lot of chemical products from a diet and the impact was incredible.

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And then I started to learn things like for breakfast, if you go to bed at the same time and you get up at the same time and you have a breakfast of high fat, high protein, low carbohydrates. I think Jordan Peterson was talking about the fact that 70% of his clients, their depression and anxiety disappeared. It became this very interesting journey.

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And when I talk about a toolbox, it's like when you get a job made and you're going to work down the backyard, you've to take the bits and pieces you need and you put it together. Because when you get to the job, you certainly don't want to go back to the garage. So for me, that's what that toolbox means. What are the things that I've developed and learned along the way that I can have with me? So whenever I need it, I've got that tool to help me cope with anxiety, a panic attack, depression, memories and recall of what happened to me as a kid. So what are those things? So when I talk about a toolbox, that's what it means.

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Logan (07:00): So what are some of those things?

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Dr. John A. King (07:03): Well, diet is one fundamental. Exercise is another. Even moving as little as 10 minutes a day can make a massive difference to someone. Sunlight. If you can get yourself 10 to 15 minutes of sunlight, they've shown neurologically what that does to your brain and to your system. So putting your feet on the ground or, believe it or not, tree hug. I've become a tree hugger. I'm a massive tree hugger. And here's why.

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I know, I know, I'm six foot tall, 230 pound bodybuilding, and I love to hug trees. It's odd. So what I learned was that the frequency that the sun emits, everything in our world is frequency, everything in our body is frequency. And if we have challenges with our sleep, it's because we're outside of our circadian rhythm. A lot of that's to do with blue light, the light we watch, the TVs, our screens. So just by putting your feet on the ground, you're actually getting in tune with your natural environment.

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It is the single best way to beat jet lag. Next time you're crossing the country or crossing in Europe, first thing you do, it sounds odd, take your shoes and socks off when you get outside to the first bit of green and put your feet on the ground for as little as five seconds and your body will get in tune, your biological clock will get in tune. So if you think of it, we've looked at diet, we've looked at exercise, we've looked at getting some sun, we've looked at feet on the ground, making sure you drink water.

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And there's a lot of little things and I'll go through some more for you if you want. But if you think of it, for me they're all 1% changes. But if I can make 1% change per week, I've made a 50% change to the quality of my life by the end of the year. And so when I encourage people is don't try and do these big microwave American, I want it now sort of things, is just try and do 1% this week. I live in Texas, mate. Everyone's got to have it now. You know what I mean? And if you can just do 1% a week, you can make a massive difference, organizationally, in terms of your goal setting, in terms of your personal life.

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Logan (09:01): Yeah, two things I wanted to touch on out of that was your comments about, you know, exercise, getting outside, getting sunlight. Years and years ago, I listened to somebody on a podcast. I don't even remember his name, but he was talking, he had done a bunch of studies around coffee and then being healthy and the five things to have the perfect day. And he said to hit three or four of them, the best thing you could do was to go outside with no sunscreen, no sunglasses, walk a half hour to your local coffee shop, have a cup of coffee and walk back. And that's probably one of the healthiest things you could possibly do. And it's so simple.

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And the other thing, I lived in Germany for four years. And one of the interesting things that they had that I came across was a hiking park. And it was a barefoot hiking park. And they have these all around the country and you're supposed to walk, or maybe it's called barefoot walking or something. But they have all sorts of different sensations for your feet that you're supposed to walk through with no shoes in order to feel the earth on your feet. And it's like a rejuvenation and health practice. I don't know if you're aware, but sometimes the German doctors will prescribe if you're too stressed to go to like the Black Forest and do this kind of stuff, do hikes and do wellness and all this stuff. So they have all these things. And so just you talking about putting your feet on the ground barefoot, it brought that back. And yet, I love that these couple of things, in all seriousness, like the seriousness of trauma and everything, that these are things that are, I think, very doable.

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Dr. John A. King (10:31): They are. So the big trend at the moment is cold plunges. Everyone, but I don't want to spend five or six grand on a cold plunge. You can get probably 60 to 70% of the same benefit from a cold shower. If you just turn the water down, cold, you know, it's horrible, but just do it. So you can survive a minute. Just turn it down and make sure it hits your pineal gland. Make sure it's on your head, flows down over your chest. It actually is a great way to increase sleep. I do it at night, which is, you know, counterintuitive, but increases your ability to sleep, cools your body down.

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So you're adding up all these things and all these things are free. They don't cost you outside of the decision that you don't want to feel this bad anymore. You don't want to be a victim. You want to get over your anxiety and your stress and your panic attacks. That decision to do that is the fundamentally most important thing out of any of this. The decision to change.

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Logan (11:54): And is that something that just has to come internally or there, you know, external things that you found that helped move that along?

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Dr. John A. King (12:04): So, you know, talking to a high show guy and you've obviously good with people and I'm pretty sure you may possibly never have found anyone who wants to do anything that they haven't made their mind up themselves. I don't think you can actually give people advice. I think all you can do is get a free coffee. Anyone who wants to make a change has to make the decision to make the change. And when the pain of staying the same exceeds the pain of change, will change. So when I get sick and tired of being in this space, I'll do whatever it is I need to do to get to where I want to go.

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Logan (12:40): Yeah, I mean, they talk about that in recovery stuff as well. It sticks when you actually want it. Which is a good call out. So translating some of these simpler things for people, like if you're in an organization or a team, and especially in remote work where we'll have listeners that are in office and remote. What would you say for somebody that's leading a team in giving them like two to three tactics of what they can help their team with and encourage some of these things just to keep a clear mind, keep upbeat, keep positive, even trauma or not related.

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Dr. John A. King (13:21): Performance. Because ultimately this all leads into better performance. So as someone who has had these things to overcome, I wanted to get better in my life. It's a performance mindset in some ways. Stand up every hour. If you do 10 air squats every hour, it's the equivalent of like a 25 minute workout, because it pumps the blood through your body. Just that, stand up every hour.

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I'll show you something. I've got to pull it out from under my desk, but it's a bit dirty, so excuse me, folks. It's a grounding mat. It's just a simple grounding mat. And it plugs in. It plugs into the earth in the wall. And I can just take my shoes off and I'll put it down here when I'm in my shed and it's grounded outside. You can sleep on them. You can sit on. So if I'm sitting at my desk all the time, I'm sitting here, I have my feet on my grounding mat and I stand up. I put a timer on. I just stand up every hour.

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Go and make a coffee, go outside. And I'm not talking about, because I'm pretty focused guy. When I get to doing a thing, I get to get after it, but I actually get more productive if I take three to four to five minutes every hour and do that. And take my lunch and don't be on my phone when I'm eating. And these are things that we all know to do because our grandma would beat us if we did. That's always the inner voice, is someone's grandma. Melissa, my wife's grandma, she's Southern, man, Baptist, man. You got to fear that woman. She gonna get after you. So you do these things.

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And again, they all sound silly as a standalone. What, take your shoes off and put it on the ground? Yeah. Stand outside for five minutes? Yeah. Drink my water? Yeah. They're all 1% changes. But if you add them up through the day, they're going to make a difference. I think part of it is allowing, wanting the best out of our people, which is giving them room to find that. And I think the days of having to tie people to a desk are long gone. We need to have a level of trust with our people. And I think we're going to get better results from them, better results from our teams.

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Logan (15:18): So I want to take that. So now we've got a few tips for encouraging people to do stuff and encouraging their teams to keep productive throughout the day. Like if you're in person, you can obviously do some of this a little bit better, but in a trauma aware company, or if you're trying to create a trauma aware organization, what are some of the roles of HR and leaders? I guess I won't even make it HR, but what are some of the roles of leaders within the organization in creating policies and practices that helps create environments that are safe and trauma aware? What do you think?

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Dr. John A. King (15:53): I think creating a culture as opposed to a practice. I know that might sound a bit tree-huggery or ethereal, but the culture will sustain you. For one thing, asking the second question. If you notice that someone's demeanor's off, they're a little bit raggedy, their shirt isn't tucked in, maybe they're not as squared away or shaved if it's a guy as they might be. Hey, how you going? Yeah, good, good. Hey, how are you going? That second question. And giving pause. And when you ask someone how they're going, simple things. Look them in the eye. Don't want to race down the corridor to get away. Or just don't ask that question. But ask the question with the intention of hearing an answer that may take 15 or 20 minutes out of your day.

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And as a leader, if we're really there to connect with our people and help our people get better, if our people are better, they're performing better, they're in a better headspace, then we're going to get better results from them. And stopping and asking that second question, looking people in the eye, giving yourself some time to feel where they're up to. Again, ethereal, but very real. You can tell. We've all had that gut check where we ask someone something and they, oh yeah, I'm fine. And it's like, okay, hey, listen, you just pause a minute. Can you talk to me about that? Are you doing okay? I think just even that, having that as a part of it and realizing that we are allowed to stop as leaders within our organization and ask our people. They may not want to share, and it's not our place to probe, but if they do, take in time to have a chat.

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Logan (17:39): Yeah, that's good advice. I was just talking with an HR leader and she works for a recovery clinic and she had a policy during COVID when everybody was remote and dealing with everything that you couldn't use, I think it was like, you couldn't use the one words. Like it had to be more than one word in your response of like, how are you doing? You can't use good, and part of it was I think how they phrased the question as well. And so to your point, pausing and being able to dig in a little bit. And I'm sure people sometimes just want to be asked, like you just need a way to release.

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Dr. John A. King (18:07): I believe so. I remember I was working in Los Alamos during COVID. And here is this incredible organization, Los Alamos National Laboratory. And it was horrible to work for. Like, I mean, it was horrible. Like they had no idea. Here we are all in lockdown. So everyone has just gone from working eight hours a day to 14, because we can all work on Zoom.

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So I think one of the things is being aware as a leader that you've contracted, you've got a social contract with someone for a minimum of eight hours, then a couple on special projects. So we're looking at a window. And not to abuse that. Just because you can hop on a meeting at seven o'clock doesn't mean that they probably want to. Maybe they want to have breakfast with their kids, and them having breakfast with their kids is fundamental. It's really important.

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I had a lady, she was going to have me on a podcast this afternoon. She totally forgot because she's making her daughter's Halloween costume. And I said, that's awesome. That's just great. She said, I feel so bad. I said, yeah, it's okay, because it just is okay. And maybe it's okay. I try to measure people, the grace that I want to receive. Because I absolutely promise you, I haven't turned up for podcasts. I've missed my appointments. I've just forgotten something. And I think if our work environments can be a little more human like that. Now I'm not talking about catering to a victim mentality, catering to someone who's just lazy, but working with the people to bring that best out in them.

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Logan (19:55): And how do you balance that fine line?

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Dr. John A. King (20:04): Authenticity. I think authenticity is absolutely important. And being an authentic leader, but then expecting the same from your people. And if you think they're slacking, saying, hey, listen, I need to have a conversation with you because I've noticed over the last little bit that this happens. Can we talk about that, please? And just because you want to work with truthful people, and some people get stuck in a rut of being insincere. And I believe that if you give them room, they'll actually want to graduate if you'll give them the grace to get there. Some people don't, and those people are disqualifying themselves. So I think the authenticity and the authentic check is actually a great way to prepare to find the leaders that you want to be building your organization going forward.

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Logan (20:58): Okay, that's interesting. So what's an authenticity check that you would think about?

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Dr. John A. King (21:06): One of the standards I've got for myself is I make big things out of small things, because I call acorns always growing away trees. So if I find something, if I find that someone, that's one. Admonish and encourage in public and correct in private is another. So they start to come together. If someone is always late to get on a Zoom call or something, then when everyone else is, gonna say, hey, listen, I noticed that you're always, like, well, no, I'm not. Well, in fact, you are. The last four out of five calls, you've been late. And for me, that's not acceptable. So can we talk about why? They may just be lazy, or they may be in a bind because they've got to drop their kids at school and you've set the meeting for 9:30, and traffic is 8:45 and traffic so bad, they just can't get there. They need three more minutes.

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So by having this, I'm authentic because I'm ticked off at this, you're being authentic because you're being honest with me. And we renegotiate for a 9:10 start. And what that does is that builds a strength of relationship because you're aware, I'm aware, and we're building a solution together. Instead of just harbing, you know what, they are always bloody late to a meeting. I'm not going to put it, instead of asking the question, it's three minutes difference. So that's one example.

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Logan (22:34): I like that example, and two things I wanted to call out, like the, well, I'll go after this first example, but the three minutes late because you're dropping off at daycare and or school or whatever and traffic is just a nightmare. I deal with that all the time. There's one car, one school in between me and my daughter's school and it backed up every time. And I'm like, I'm going to get started at 8:30 and I'm always like 8:35 or 8:40 because of that.

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But it was last year, I was at an HR conference and I've been thinking about writing a post about this, but I don't usually dabble into the topic of like DEI and that kind of stuff. But she talked about how a auto plant in a small town was dealing with a labor shortage. And they found that it was because of when shift started. So they started at like 7:30 or 8:00 and the bus didn't pick up kids from school till 8:30. And so when she was consulting with them, she was like, well, if you moved the shift times, because shifts are arbitrarily created, to 9:00 you now open up the entire workforce to the moms or the caregivers that are walking the kids to school. And if you then just shift your stuff around. So the point was just like these slight shifts in understanding why people weren't doing stuff or why people are late. And I think is great.

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And the other piece, the missed podcast, because making a Halloween costume, you almost love to hear that because, you know, it's people living their lives with their kids. And that's always a lot better than being on screens and everything.

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Dr. John A. King (23:59): My grace for that lady happened because the week before I was grieving the death of my brother and I forgot to turn up in a studio and do a podcast and I apologized. I offered to compensate her for the hire of the studio and she didn't get back to me. She obviously got deeply offended and I feel bad for that. But what it was is I stopped there and looked and I thought, I've clearly forgot, clearly my bad, clearly life turned up. There's nothing I can do to make it right. And so I've actually spent the whole week going, you know what? That's good. That's a good lesson. There's a lesson in there for me. So this week, brother, I've had two people just not show. And I thought, okay, I've learned my lesson and I'm just going to extend grace to people because why get upset over something? Life turns up to us.

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Logan (25:12): Yeah, it does. And I think that was the other thing I was going to comment on, creating environments around this of creating a balance between people have lives and they need to work, and creating some kind of grace and balance there. And I think that's probably a lot of your skill set and learning in that, is that you have stuff that's brought from personal life, but we need to be productive members of society as well. And how do you create that balance?

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Dr. John A. King (25:24): So I think that's interesting. You've seen the show, is it Severance? It's this Apple TV show about these people who unplug their memory, go to work, and then they put their personal life back in. And I thought it was really good. I don't have much season two. I thought it was very interesting.

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Logan (26:02): Funny, I'll let you continue, but one of my really good buddies, or a colleague of mine that I worked with, he did a whole marketing campaign around innies and outies. And I had no idea what it was because I'd never watched the show, but marketers apparently, their target audience really watched the show. And I had asked, I was like, I don't even know what this is, and he explained it to me. And we actually recorded it on a podcast. I was like, honestly, before we did that episode, I went and YouTube what innies and outies was, and his explanation was way better. So, but that is a very popular show. I haven't seen it, but the plugging in, and I'll let you continue.

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Dr. John A. King (26:37): It's like if we want the best out of our people. When I work with people in my teams, I want there to be a work life balance, but I don't want there to be a separation in a sense, because I want there to be a sense of, where a continuation. You love working with me so much, you love what we're doing, what our vision and our dream is. And I in turn am equally concerned for your growth and success as a human being.

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So there becomes a blurred line and you have to be careful in order to manage that. But if you need a little grace, I'll give you some. And if I need a little more effort, then you'll give me some. And so part of that is, are we prepared to walk with damaged people before they get productive again? And if you have a look at some of the big things like death of a spouse, moving, new job, divorce, any of those will knock your productivity around. Some will say from as much as reduce it by down to as little as 20%, 30%. So if someone is coming to work and they're not performing, how are things going? So then as an organization, are you committed to, you've invested in that person for three or four years. Are you committed to walking with them for three to six months, understanding that there's going to be a change along the way and maybe even helping get some resources for them to help them get where it is.

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I have a friend, a good friend, love him, his wife committed suicide last week and two weeks ago we had a funeral, and the devastation on his life and his family, he will never recover from that, never. And yet he's going to have to learn to live with it. So how quickly do you want someone like that to recover? And he has been with his particular organization for 15 years. And so then you ask this question, you look at it, okay, he's in a short window now, it's horrible. At some point he's going to start to turn around, and that may be six months or so, but you've got 15 years invested. And if you'd work it right, what you're going to have is you're going to have someone who's going to stay with you for the next 15 or 20 years. So I think that's part of that as a leader and a manager, is a bigger view of the development of a human being and walking through those sorts of situations in life with them.

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Logan (29:10): Yeah, and I mean, that's really tough stories to hear, but you mentioned at the start, I don't know if it'll make it to the final edit, but the American wanting stuff now, how do you balance that? And especially in the current business environment, where a lot of people from this show, they might work in private equity environments, and those are really high stress, high turnover environments. How should we start thinking about these? In the grand scheme of things, it's tough in a three to six months, but the list that you rattled off is stuff a lot of people go through. Actually, some of it everybody goes through.

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Dr. John A. King (29:36): So I think part of it is actually doing the research to ask, what are the most productive people like? We have very high octane work environments in some areas. But if you look at it, like some of those high equity, they're in it because they're going to make a lot of money in a small period of time. So a lot of their self-esteem is tied up with money. So that's a different conversation altogether.

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They're fundamentally living from the outside in. And most of us have, in our 20s we were told what school to go to, what address, what to believe, even who to marry. At some point you have a midlife realignment and you have to start living from the inside out. So that concept alone is, okay, what am I trading here? I'm trading time and health for money. Well, money's a perishable asset. Your time and your health and relationships, you'll never get those back. They're actually the things that are really important.

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So it's going to take not a seismic shift, but a self awareness shift of, there's some things I'm never going to have back. And I still think you can be a high performer, but with some personal boundaries. But it's just like Gordon Gekko, the world doesn't have to be Gordon Gekko. I don't want to do business with Gordon Gekko, I don't want to be Gordon Gekko. Yes, Gordon's got a lot of money. I don't need that money if it's going to cost me my soul. And I think there's some of those personal things. And when you build a culture and a team, you have to be very careful to pick those people. If that's really as an organization what you want to build, then you've got to pick the people that are committed to building that with you.

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Logan (31:35): Yeah, that's a good call out. I think kind of a segue on that, or like an extension of that, is not every organization is built for everywhere you're at in your life, or something to that effect. Not to be discriminatory or anything like that, but that's just something. And for any younger people listening to this audience, that was a deep Gordon Gekko reference from Wall Street.

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Dr. John A. King (31:44): Exactly. Yes, exactly. Yeah, sorry, shame I ate it.

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Logan (32:04): And the famous line, you haven't watched it, is, is good. The famous speech from that movie. But Dr. John King does not want to work with Gordon Gekko. And that is perfectly fine.

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Dr. John A. King (32:08): No, the reason I know I don't want to is because I have, and I've had to work with Gordon. And the thing is, I didn't like myself when I was working with Gordon and for Gordon. I didn't like me at all. And it's like, man, at some point I'm going to have to get comfortable with me. So what's more important, pleasing Gordon or being authentic to who I am? And they're big questions.

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Logan (32:21): Yeah, those are big questions. I think COVID and remote work and all of that made a lot of people question that and through that. Well, John, I want to say thank you for joining us today. Is there any other key takeaways or tips you want to leave our audience as HR leaders? They obviously have employees going through this stuff because this is stuff people go through. Any parting advice you would have for creating environments that help people keep people productive that you would love to leave them with.

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Dr. John A. King (33:06): I don't think you can over train in this area. I think these are things, and I'm going to send you a link. I actually developed the program for the people on your podcast called the Mind Fire Challenge. And it's our gift to your audience. Normally 450 bucks. They can do it and go through it. And what it does is addresses the fundamental issues of trauma and the fundamental issues of internal alignment, purpose, mission, vision, and value. And I don't think you could do enough soft skills. It is really not seen as a valuable set within a large corporate environment. Yet if you think about it, everything we do in corporate leadership is a soft skill.

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And HR, I think it's very important for HR people, because they are the human, they're supposed to be the human facing front. They don't necessarily have a good rep sometimes in that area because they have to be the dogs with sticks, or people with big sticks and dogs, I don't know, whatever, it comes down to sticks at some point. And HR has got to wield those sticks. And so I think training for soft skills below even or outside of a HR context is important, so people can become self-aware to ask themselves these questions and take personal responsibility.

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Because ultimately, if I'm working with you and you're my HR coordinator, I, John King, am personally responsible for my journey in my life. And yet I really feel like people need to be empowered to be like that. Is that, okay, I'm actually responsible, I've got the tools and now I'm going to do something about it. And so I would encourage people to be able to take whatever tools, if it's our tools we've got with the collective, or other tools like they've got with you, with HRBench, use those tools, get those messages out to people. Take highlights from your podcasts. Some of the podcasts you do, slice them up, send any people, put them in a HR newsletter, say, hey, listen, watch this, this is important. Let's have a conversation.

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Logan (35:14): Yeah, that's really good advice. I want to comment about the perception for HR having to wield the sticks. People in this audience have to be there laying people off, letting people go and all of that. And actually, often that's that perception, but they are also dealing with the stress of having to do that and bounce back and go to other meetings, just acknowledging that. We just spoke with Stacy Baird, who's a customer of ours, and she talks a lot about that.

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Dr. John A. King (35:52): I think that's important, mate. People don't stop. And the people who are giving the care need to have care given to them. And I think we work with several large corporations in what we do. And when it comes to things like layoffs, a lot of people get into HR because they're fundamentally caring human beings. And yet through their journey, they've either been beat down, worn down, or hardened up, because they've had to do some hard things. They've had to hear hard stories. They've had to lay some people off. They've become aware of what that's cost people. That suicide has turned up. Marriages have broken down. Kids have been pulled out of school. And if you've got any level of empathy, then that takes a toll. And I think sometimes we need to care for our carers. And I think HR is an important focus. You have to take care of that, because that is part of the, it's the core group that creates a culture for an organization.

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Logan (36:51): And I think that's a great spot to leave it. We got to care for our caregivers.

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Dr. John A. King (36:57): Perfect, mate.

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Logan (36:58): Awesome. Well, thank you again, John. This was a great conversation.

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Dr. John A. King (37:02): Cheers, mate. Appreciate it.

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Logan (37:03): Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Pulse, the podcast that has real conversations with HR leaders linking people to performance. HRBench is the people analytics platform that turns HR data into business strategy. It connects to all your tools, HRIS, ATS, payroll, surveys, whatever you're using. In just a few clicks, you get over 45 metrics instantly visualized in boardroom ready dashboards, benchmarked by industry and company size. Book a demo at HRBench.com and we'll build you a custom benchmark report using your data.